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Bert Fuller - An Insider's View of the Maxwell Institute Pt. 2 | Ep. 887

4,022 views · Published 21 March 2018 · 1:01:14 · Indexed 26 October 2026

Channel: Mormon Stories Podcast · 2018 · Education

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In these Mormon Stories episodes, we interview Bert Fuller – PhD student and former researcher for the Maxwell Institute of Religious Scholarship at Brigham Young University.

In Part 1, Bert shares his background as a Mormon and provides an insider’s view of the Maxwell Institute.  Part 2 includes his critique of Mormon Neo-Apologetics and compares its approach to the more traditional form of Mormon apologetics.  Finally in Part 3, Bert shares what his life is like now in terms of spirituality.

Chapters
00:00 Introduction
00:30 The traditional apologists
02:21 They leave the option for pausible deniability so belief stays possible
03:37 The name 'new apologists' - John Charles Duffy master thesis
04:40 New apologists
05:30 An exception to the rule
05:58 Further describing new apologists
06:25 The two minute primer on post-modernism
08:02 This leads to whole days of discussing what 'translation' means
08:29 But it was clear what JS was doing when he 'translated' the plates?
10:08 Example: Bushman at a symposium
10:57 Live comment: this gets confusing! John and Bert further explaining postmodernism. Adam Miller
12:48 Bushman, members reasoning about wether the church is true or good
13:36 It's a binding force for many people's lives. Cognitive dissonance in this context
14:05 Primary responsibility of apologetics. Laura Hales
15:30 Don't look at the authority structure that collects money. Make the target nimble. A few anecdotes
19:28 The fact there are rules is why we do this interview. JS talking in a literal meaning about real plates etc.
21:51 Current apologists creating a problem when invalidating people's experiences about being taught absolute truths
22:05 The bait and switch with significant consequences. Talks at GC all suport the literal interpretation
23:05 Scholars need to be taken seriously. If you are open to what they say you can also get rid of what doesn't give nutrients
23:44 Live comments, Q&A
24:05 This word mastering doesn't make sense in the mormon world. Bert's response
27:03 Bert's critiques have dulled - being really sharp right after he got out
27:52 'Jackson Washburn, are you listening?'
28:07 To ease the cognitive dissonance the apologist will challenge the construct of reality. Term: 'gaslighting'
28:54 Derrida: all that exists is the text
30:16 Religion providing solid answers to vexing questions of life
31:00 When a belief is actually making you suffer, trying to help in a way that makes the suffering continue is bad
33:20 Going back to Berts story. August 2013 Institute retreat. A weight get lifted off of his shoulders
35:10 EQ presidents shows him the CES-letter. Bert kind of laughs at it - it didn't compute for him
36:03 Learning in retrospect that people do take the time to study it
36:33 At the time it didn't make sense to him that people after reading it would decide to get out
37:19 But Bert reads a few weird things that he put on his shelf. More concerned about the EQ president
38:34 John talking about his counseling work. The rider and the elephant
39:17 In the CES-letter some things about the Maxwell Institute.
40:12 Career apologists. Did Berts employment at the Maxwell Institute serve as a binding force
41:10 Leaving to Toronto to start PhD. Cultural diversity
42:25 Going to BYU for a 3 week summer seminar. Jim Faulkner, Wheatley Institution
43:30 True Detective on HBO about satanic ritual abuse. Running into a friend, who tells she left the church after having been in a ritual abuse household
45:14 Time period in 80s / 90s there were rumors about ritual abuse
45:44 Learning how the church settles out of court abuse cases. Bert reaches his emotional break
47:02 Bert starts listening Mormon Stories, John Larsen, Infants on thrones.
47:20 Understanding the depth of the things not talked about in the scholarly literature. Decides to get out
48:56 The no go areas for scholars at the Maxwell Institute
52:17 Do not openly question or defy the patriarchal authority structure.
54:27 Summary of the two apologetics, and the field where you're not allowed to go
55:24 Mundane stuff such as don't go to Sunstone. Hierarchy of scholars to take more or less serious
56:27 The world of academic publishers and the economics behind it
59:38 The culture of not taking some researchers seriously. Having a thesis and defend it

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